Wednesday, August 12, 2009

Conversation on Healthcare Via Facebook

Ok. So what follows is a comment conversation started by the quote below. I haven't changed any part of it. Think it shows why 140 is never enough to get a job done properly?

"Maybe we shouldn't reform health care. I mean, we're not even ranked world-wide in any health category, so why not just give up? We'll just waste billions and billions of dollars on the current system, then start to have our asses handed to us as healthy people from other countries continue to outnumber us."

Josh - Ack! Look to the North! My God! It's..It's the Canadians! Invading! Can't see...blinded by their well-cared for smiles, and the rosy pink of health coloring their cheeks! Even their love of poutine isn't slowing them down!
But seriously, yeah. What are we getting for the billions and billions of dollars we've spent over the years?

Me - And, can someone explain what they think the difference between a mythical "Death Panel" and a private insurance review board is?

Josh - Or the Dialysis Boards that Hospitals used to have that the Government put a stop to. My Grandfather had to pay for hospice care when he decided that more chemo and rads to give him two more months of painful life (at best) was not worth it. His Doctor totally freaked out and tried to badger him into sticking with the treatment. No one would cover his hospice, but he was able to afford it on his own, and passed away quietly and comfortably in the privacy and dignity of his own home, next to his wife of 50 years.
Now they want to give people the chance to have that paid for by Medicare. Big Woop. About time.

Roxie - Josh you have a weird view of Canadians. Dental is not covered in Canada and when its cold season, the ER is packed because the waiting list to see your own PCP is 10 months. Granted my mom had the BEST surgeon do her surgery when she needed it with excellent results.There is good and bad (the good being the large, serious stuff is taken care of re more/well, the bad being routine health care maintenance not so well). Prescriptions also aren't covered in Canada. And my dad, who worked for the Canadian federal GOVERNMENT had private health care (through his job, mind you, with the federal government) on top of the public medical care, which really helped get into seeing your pcp more often and getting more than 3 seconds of time with a doctor.
I LOVE poutine. MMM. Surprised it isn't sin taxed like everything else bad for you up there.

Josh - Well, clearly I was being tongue-in-cheek, Roxanne. But it seems despite its flaws, there aren't massive amounts of Canadian citizens dying in the streets, or being denied access to major health care. Every health care system is flawed to one extent or another, some more than others, but it seems there isn't a major push in any of the "single payer" countries to do away with single payer and go to an American style system where the burden is put onto the backs of the business world.

Josh - Also, something tells me that most Canadians didn't pay $6500 out of pocket costs when their baby son was born. Like I just did. Despite having to pay $1000 a month in insurance because as a small business owner, I can't get squat otherwise. This was apparently my reward for ensuring that my wife got proper pre and neo-natal care during her pregnancy, re More, and delivery. Doctors visits, ultrasounds, proper standard testing, etc. The system as it is now merely encouraged me to "eschew" making sure my baby was born healthy, an action that could have caused him to be much more of a drain on the system later on down the road.

Me - but, why are things packed and people waiting? because they can actually be taken care of?

Brett - Before we jump off the deep end and adopt national healthcare. I would like to hear specifics about the plan. But so far all you are hearing are press junkets and no actual information. All Obama does is wave and smile, never actually says anything of substance.

Roxie - yeah, in fact I am really appreciating having this discussion with people who aren't complete extremists on one side or the other.
you're right - this system is flawed. Why? Because people who don't have health care prefer to spend their extra $100 on an Iphone instead of health insurance ( all of my friends are independent contractors who work in the television industry, my sister and husband included). AND guess what, my sister wanted health care and was denied because she had (HAD) childhood epilepsy.
so just off the bat we need regulation forcing health care companies to accept all applicants at a reasonable cost, and we need to get people to not buy iphones and to buy health insurance instead.
My biggest gripe is that I just don't want to keep signing up for the govt taking my money and then the govt deciding how best to spend it. No. I don't agree that the federal govt knows best how to spend our tax dollars. I worry that so much of it will end up going to "regulators" etc.

Roxie - Josh your story of your son being born is exactly a problem we need to solve. That said, when I was living in Canada making $30,000 a year, my INCOME taxes were slightly over $15000 (there is also 7% fed sales tax and 8% provincial sales tax) so in the long run, we were all paying A LOT for healthcare through our taxes.

Josh - Roxanne, I think my problem is that I've seen too many times (as someone who has worked in medical billing) the greed and life-threatening cupidity of the private insurance companies, and the cost and bureaucratic efficiencies of programs like Medicare. I know. Mindblowing, isn't it, but Medicare puts about 93 cents in beanies for ever dollar taken in.. private insurance spits out about 63 cents for every dollar, because they have to make profit for CEOs and shareholders. I'd rather deal with a Government bureaucrat on health insurance than a private insurance bureaucrat. The former may not care about me personally but is there to serve me, roughly. The latter has orders from up on high that might kill me if it's in their best interest. But I agree..how is the encouragement to stay healthy going to be handled? All carrot, all stick, or both?

Me - You don't hear specifics from Obama because a President (despite what the past 8 yrs told us) doesn't make laws, and, rather than discuss what should or should not be in the bill, or heaven forbid, work together on the bill, isn't it better to distract and focus on the mid-term elections rather than people?

Roxie - And will they allow grievances to be brought against the government if this plan is put in place.?

Josh - Roxanne, I don't mind being taxed more, if I got more for my taxes. It seems for the amount of taxes and money we spend on healthcare in the US (which is far in excess per person than Canada) we should have this problem fixed, or at least in a better state than we do now.
The fact remains that on a per person level, far less money is spent on health care in Canada than in the US, and we have nothing to show for all the extra money.

Josh - That's an excellent question, Roxanne. That's why we don't want to nationalize the entire health care system. But that is not exactly the same as single payer health care. I would prefer a private health care network, and a single payer insurance system run by the Government. If private insurance companies think they can offer services along side that, then let them. Again, 59% of Doctors polled last year supported single payer health care. Even Cato says that the biggest cost of health care after consumption costs is bureaucratic overhead. Medicare is much easier to get money from...I speak from personal experience on this. Even just forcing all the private companies to adhere to one set of forms and protocols would save billions.

Roxie - I swear there are thousands of moderate lefts and rights out there, you just would never know it from the Fox and NBC culture taking over.

Brett - Jeremy, I know he doesn't make policy and laws, but I want someone to come clean with exactly what they want to do about nationalized health care before they vote it in.
We basically have nationalized healthcare in mass and it seems great on the surface, but the hospitals are getting smacked around. Boston Medical center is teetering on going under because of all the freecare they are expected to cover and the state won't. They are in the process of suing the state because of it.

Me - The best is to watch Fox clips from today and from 2006/2007. I believe that might be how you spell hypocrisy now - F-O-X

Josh - My problem with RomneyCare (as a Commonwealth citizen) is that it just said "Okay, everyone HAS to buy insurance. There, problem fixed. My work here is done." Okay, that is an oversimplification of the process, but that's a lot of it seems. I'm almost convinced Romney did what he did in order to make Government health care look bad on purpose. It only made things tougher for small businesses like mine in this state. And yeah, I'm very pleased with how the conversation has been going. And now I'm hungry for more poutine! (Just came back from Montreal this weekend :)

Brett - I hear you, but I just don't trust any of them, they are going to pass a healthcare system that lines their pockets some way.

Me - well, yes, this is the U-S-A! Capitalism or nothing else

Josh - I hear you on that, Brett. My fear is that ObamaCare is just going to line the pockets of the private insurance companies and not really bring real reform. Other folks are afraid it's going to not be business-friendly enough. The one thing people on the left and the right seem to agree on is that they aren't happy with what's being proposed right now (what little has been).
I don't know if there is a way to actually nationalize healthcare in this country. I do believe that all US citizens have a right to healthcare. I think they need to keep it the way it is and state a government run insurance company for anyone that wants it. Hopefully that would keep the private healthcare companies in check. But I think nationalized healthcare is too big a mountain to climb and opens up too many more chances for the regular joe to get screwed.

Josh - Brett, I thought that a strong "Public Option" was an appropriate compromise to Single Payer. But the Blue Cross/Blue Shield Dog Democrats are trying to totally kill that now as well, and without that, where the hell is the reform coming from?
The USPS hasn't put FedEx and UPS out of business. Indeed, more people complain about FedEx service than the Post Office. So why not have a strong Public Option for people who want it? Health insurance costs, forced upon me by the last Governor of my state, are bringing my small, family owned company to the brink of disaster. It's easily my biggest overhead expense, not including payroll.

Brett - Exactly, I feel bad for the small business owners. It's horrible to be forced to buy something that is going to eventually put you out of business. I hate to say it, but maybe if they left the healthcare system alone. I am afraid there might not be an answer.

Josh - Well, getting the costs of health care off the backs of the entire business community, large and small, would be a great step in the right direction, if nothing else *heh*

Brett - Yeah that sounds good but without some business support there will be no way to pay for it. This will be Obama's downfall....

Josh - I'm kind of surprise more big businesses haven't been supporting health care reform to get it off their backs. Some big guys, like the Big 3 Automakers, have gotten sick of having to pay for health insurance for years. It undercuts the global competitiveness. I can tell you Toyota, VW, and Kia don't have these problems in their native country.

John They also don't have the unions that drive up the prices yet they still provide healthcare for their employees. My dad and I have some heated discussion over organized labor. One of the reasons we needed to bail out GM.

Josh - Well, to play the devils advocate, one of the things unions have done is asked for all sorts of health and pension benefits. These are the sorts of things Japan and France and Germany provide as government services funded by taxes, thus freeing up businesses from those costs. So it's not like they don't exist, they've just been shifted off from the back of the biz world there. They also don't spend $600+ billion dollars in military per year either, especially not on wasted "make work" planes and boats the Pentagon is begging NOT to be made.
It's easy to simply demonize organized labor the way some on the Left simply demonize capitalism as a whole. While I agree that some unions have become frighteningly corrupt (look at how Local 25 in Boston drove out the movie industry from MA for a few years). I also still hold to the notion that without the organized movement labor as a whole, we'd still have child labor, seven day work weeks, and lousy work conditions. It's all about balance.

Josh - Okay, to follow up, to be fair, I suspect that at Least some of the European countries may very well spend money on "make work" projects, building things that there isn't a demand for. They may even for this for their own (considerably) smaller militaries.

No comments: